S4 E1 Book Talk with Maggie Doyne

DAWN WILLIAMS: Welcome to On Balance, a podcast for parents created by Blue School educators. 

Blue School is an independent school in New York City that has pioneered a balanced educational experience, empowering children to be creative, analytical, joyful, and compassionate. I’m Dawn Williams, Blue School’s Director of Enrollment, and grateful parent of a Blue School graduate. I’m especially excited about this new season of On Balance. Throughout Season 4, we are focusing on Creativity. I will be talking with incredible authors, educators, and parents who are engaged in the work of building a world worthy of our children. They will offer their experiences and will share tools that can help us grow emotionally, intellectually and creatively. We will be talking about grief, about love, about responsibility and joy– all through the lens of Creativity. 

This episode features Maggie Doyne, one of the smartest, boldest, most loving women I’ve ever met.  Maggie is a humanitarian, activist, co-founder, and CEO of the BlinkNow Foundation. She is a philanthropist who has built a children's home, women's center and school in Nepal. She won the CNN Hero of the Year Award in November 2015. She is the author of Between the Mountain and the Sky: A Mother’s Story of Love, Loss, Healing, and Hope– a new and absolutely stunning book that we’re going to talk about today. She is also a mother to children from infants to college graduates. 

Maggie! I cannot thank you enough for being here today.

WILLIAMS: So Maggie, thank you so much for being here today and for talking to us. This is seriously the greatest joy.

MAGGIE DOYNE:  I'm so excited to be here. I love the Blue School.

WILLIAMS:  We love you, too, really like super love you, too.

DOYNE:  It's a real love. Like I love you all.

WILLIAMS: It's a real love. We love you back. And I think that many Blue School people and our listeners will be familiar with you, with BlinkNow, with Kopila Valley School and Home. And I hope that many, many people from the community have read your amazing book Between the Mountain and the Sky: A Mother's Story of Love, Loss, Healing, and Hope. It is an astounding, astounding book. But for those who are new to you or your work, you founded BlinkNow in, is it 2007?

DOYNE:  That's right.

WILLIAMS:  After spending -- and I know you've told this story so many times -- but after spending a gap year after high school and traveling, and your travels bringing you to Nepal. And you share a story in which time sort of stops. I feel like in your book, it's this amazing moment where time sort of stops, and you really see this girl, Hima. Is that her name, Hima?

DOYNE:  Uh-huh.

WILLIAMS:  And she's breaking rocks to sell in a riverbed. And can you tell us about that moment?

DOYNE:  Yes, so I look up, and I saw dozens of children breaking rocks. And I was so overwhelmed by just the effects of war and the reality of human suffering, and that the children could be working at the age of 4 and 5 and 7 and 8 on a riverbed. And I was so overwhelmed, but in that moment, this little girl named Hima said, "Namaste, didi" with this big, beautiful smile in her orange dress, and I was like, "Oh, I can't do everything about this problem or 152 million children who are orphaned worldwide or 300 million children -- I can't do everything to solve this problem, but maybe Hima. Like I could do something for Hima. And I saw a moment of like, "We're the same." Except she is me, and I am her. And what could change this reality that I'm seeing? And maybe education is the way.

WILLIAMS:  So through the book you share so many of these life-changing moments, where I think you say -- I love this phrase. I've been thinking about it a lot. "The plates inside me begin to shift." And there are moments where, again, like time seems to stop, and something comes into focus, and something becomes really clear, and then you act. And I guess as a human, I would love to know what do those moments feel like for you?  I'm taken by your ability to recognize those moments and then step into them and name them. What is your inner voice in those moments?

DOYNE:  Yes, the first one was that I was a kid from Jersey, in the suburbs. It wasn't a question of "Are you going to college?" It was, "Where are you going?" And, "Where are you going to get in?" And this school, or that school. I'm sure that resonates a little bit with -- we're products of privilege in a way, when that's the question of, "Where did you get in? Which school?” And this and that.

And the first moment of the plate shifting was just like this, "Whoa, wait a second. I don't know whether I want to go spend all of this money, take out all of these loans, figure out what I want to do, what I want to be, what I want to study, invest in this -- and I have no idea who I am on the inside, what my heart wants, and who is Maggie, and what is my purpose here? I don't know anything about the world outside of me. I'm 17. Like I just want to kick a soccer ball around and jump on the trampoline.” So that was the first moment, and travel, and just stepping outside of the classroom in a way and seeing the world. And being open enough to listen to that message, being like, "Wait, I don't really care about Bucknell or Villanova or BC or whatever preppy –” It was just this like weird, like, "Wait, what's going on?" And then that led me to the next step of my education, which was just fun and playing again and reading again, and through travel, having all of those experiences. And then that led me to Northeastern India, where it was just like, I fell in love with the Nepali refugee community and the migrant community, and kind of seeing those issues and wanting to understand and being driven by this curiosity.

So I think the theme of those moments where time stops are that feeling in your gut that you just get sometimes. We all have them as human beings, when we're quiet enough to listen. And a lot of times it's love. A lot of times it's suffering or just human connection or a moment of compassion -- seeing yourself in someone else, seeing that we're so connected as a human family. And then the question is, do you listen? Do you listen to that voice? When the rest of the world is so loud and so noisy and telling you to be a certain way, or like get distracted by a certain thing or all of the stuff. Like there's so much noise that's telling us not to stop and listen and be quiet and take a breath. 

And I think the biggest gift of my life was that in that transitional, huge period of time from 18, 19, to 20, it was quiet enough that I could listen.

WILLIAMS:  So I guess I have a question about how do you -- because yes, you did it when you were 18 and 19 and 20, but then through your book we see these other moments, where you keep doing it, right? You keep staying open to those moments and stepping forward into them. You must have those same walls that the rest of us have. I know I have, that are like, "Am I doing it right? What will other people say?" All of those things that, if we see something, and we think, "I could step forward into this," there are so many things that whisper to me, "No, no -- not your thing." What is your relationship with that voice, that you step forward?

DOYNE:  It's a constant grappling. I mean, it's just constant. We live in a world with so many things to be concerned about. I mean, the environment, violence, just the mental health crisis that we're in, social media. And I think at that specific age of my life, I was really just lucky. Like I didn't have college loans. I didn't have a mortgage. I didn't have a lot of fear. I was just like, "Okay, so I'm going to try. I have to try to make it better." It actually felt easier to try to stay on that riverbed and put kids into school and try to make a difference than it felt to not. 

There wasn't the self-doubt, and I don't know if that was youth or it was just the naive nature. Of course now, looking back, I'm 35, and I'm like, "What was I?" I have 18-year-olds now. Like how did I -- I had no idea what lay ahead. I didn't know. There was something in it that I could see so clearly that it was worth giving it a try. And if I failed, what was going to happen? I was lucky enough that I could have gone back to New Jersey and kept babysitting or living with my parents. I could go back to college.

But I started learning and learning and learning. And I think what helped me was fueling my questions and my curiosity in the "why." 

Like why, why, why -- why is the world like this? Why do we have these conditions? Why are children breaking rocks? I wanted answers, and I think I used knowledge and learning as a way to fuel my curiosity and my frustration and my anger and my despair and my hopelessness.

And so that stage of my education turned into a learning. I turned the rage and the desperation I was feeling, and the frustration into like, "Let me learn about this issue and sink my teeth into it and see how I can work with the local community to be of help." Or just like try to change this thing that's making me feel this way.

WILLIAMS:  And as you've grown and as your home and school and women's center as these other pieces have grown. And there's more at risk, more to love, like all of that. Has that changed the way you step into those moments?

DOYNE:  You know, I try to think back a lot on my 18-year-old self and hold her hand.

WILLIAMS:  This whole book actually feels like you must feel very familiar with her right now, having done the work of this book. 

DOYNE:  Yeah, the beauty of memoir, that you get to go back and look at those moments and freeze time. And I think, how do we bring ourselves back as a 35-year-old self or a 45-year-old self, or a 60-year-old self, or a 90-year-old self to that childlike state of wonder and joy and love? 

If you look at the face of a child, they are innately born with curiosity and laughter and lightness, and they're born without fear. And they're born just so pure and so sacred and all love. And our challenge as grown-ups trying to adult in this world is to go back to our childlike state of wonder and love, and lose fear. 

You know, I have a 4-year-old now, a biological daughter named Ruby Sunshine, and January 6th happened. COVID happened. You saw me on the front lines. Migrant crisis, hunger, major backslide in mental health crisis, Trump era, violence, war. And I would look -- I would be scared. I was biting my nails off. It was sheer terror and fear and like, "What does this mean? What does this mean and why? Why are we going through this?" 

And then I'd look at my daughter, and she'd pick up a rock. She'd be like, "Look, Mommy, I found the perfect stone. I picked up the perfect pebble. It's the shape of a heart." Or we'd be walking outside, and she'd be like, "Look at the sky. The stars are shining tonight." And she had none of that. And it was such a parallel to -- And it's not about being naive or like -- She just was in such a state of purity and light and love and hope that it helped me a lot during this era that we're in. My own children in Nepal have helped me. Like even amongst everything that they've been through, they've stayed in a place of joy and love, and flying kites and playing marbles, and playing with their sticks. I just think life is all about staying, staying in a place of wonder, and being where we can, doing what we can with what we have, where we are.

WILLIAMS:  Yeah, I feel like in the book you sort of also name the importance of people with privilege doing something, right? Acting in the world. But you also are very thoughtful about your identity, right? -- as a white American woman in Nepal. How has that informed, and how does it continue to inform the way you approach that work? Or has that shifted?

DOYNE:  Oh, my gosh. I mean, I did not want to write this book. I felt like, "Who are you to have a story in this right now?" I was really trying to balance, like de-centering. Also, this is the only story I'm equipped to tell. And also as someone who has been like -- so many things, right? Power, privilege, colonialism.

WILLIAMS:  I think you say, "Well-intentioned colonialism is still colonialism."

DOYNE:  Yes. I've had to learn a lot about how to navigate this space of someone who is an outsider. And eventually in writing the book, I came to a place where like, I actually have to tell the story because I have to pass the baton on to the next generation of humanitarians and other people who want to do this work and ask these questions. But that was the hardest part of the book, just figuring out where is my place in this story, and how do we do good and change something and use that fiery passion and our power and our privilege to make a change where it's appropriate and when it's appropriate? And those lines are grey. They're constantly evolving, and there's an awareness that is needed, and a cultural sensitivity.

And the whole book, as you know since you've read it, is this push and pull of like, "Is it my place, is it not my place? How do we do this well and do it ethically? How do we keep ancient tradition, ancient knowledge, ancient culture, wisdom, all the beauty of this culture, but also change some of the realities that need changing in this world? What is my place as an American?” I'm from New Jersey. Again, it was like the collision of all these worlds. And of course you know that the answer ultimately was the local people and empowering them and my co-founder, Tope, who had that story and came from that journey. And a huge part of the book was wanting to elevate their stories and show that that's why it was all successful.

WILLIAMS:  Totally. And I feel like you also are so thoughtful in looking at what stories are yours to tell, right? Or the fact that there are so many other narratives in this story. There's Tope's story. There are your children's stories. And it feels like you're in the act of sort of naming or finding the boundaries in what story is yours to tell. How did you recognize or sort of hone into where those boundaries were, in terms of what story you wanted to tell, or you felt like you could tell?

DOYNE:  So I was sleepless about it, to be honest. For months I was like, "Ah, maybe this isn't the time. Maybe we wait. Or maybe this. Or maybe that." But also like, "No, you were in a sense” -- like because I was a poster child in a way for gap years and volunteerism and development and all of these -- like adoption. Like every single hot button issue was there, and I felt like how do I ask those questions? And I didn't want to leave answers. I wanted to leave questions, but I was stuck. Is this a book about DIY development? Is it a book about my children's stories and how important they are? Because they are the reason why this story exists. They are the heroes. They are the -- they're everything. There would be no story without them and all of their potential and their love. But again, that's not my story.

And so I started the book with a letter to the reader, and what helped me to write it was first sitting down and saying, "What is this story not?" This is not a how-to book on development. This is not my children's stories, because those aren't mine. And if and when my children are ready, they will share those. And our work with BlinkNow hasn't been about sharing our children's "suffering" and how they were victims of poverty and the things that happened to them. It's been about showing them on stage reading poetry and winning the national soccer championship, and in the library, and in a really positive light. And using discernment and being aware of exploitation in the story.

So I have ultimately landed in figuring out what I could tell ethically and truthfully. And the truth meant that I wasn't always perfect. I didn't always get it right. I failed miserably -- miserably, many times. And there were also things we did really well. Also things that I wouldn't change in a heartbeat. And also things that, looking back, I have a different lens on. And also things that as a 35-year-old woman, I'm still questioning every day. And that’s okay. We should have questions. We should have unknown. We live in an era -- like a lot of this is grey, and it's okay to say, "I don't always know, but I'm trying and I'm learning." That's what we should be doing as a human family if we want to evolve and be here together. So ultimately, I think I realized I just had to embrace the questions of it all.

WILLIAMS:  Yes, for sure. You're a teacher, and you're a speaker, and you've been telling your story and the story of BlinkNow for so many years now, in so many different ways. And this book is such a different way, right? What was different for you sort of approaching -- you're going to tell this long story, this whole story in your own voice?

DOYNE:  So it started to aggravate me that -- like we were covered in the media, as you know. Here in New York, like "CNN Heroes," "DIY Foreign Aid," Nick Kristof, front page cover of the New York Times, blip on the AP Press, or blip here, blip there. And I was just like, "Oh, no, we're more than this girl with a backpack going on a gap-year journey.” We've evolved so much, and this is the story of us, and it's a story of community, and it's the story of -- There's more I need to tell in order to do this. I order to hand this to a young person and be like, "Here's my heart," and in order to hand this to my own children, and so the book felt like, "I am so grateful for the opportunity to be able to go deeper and use a different medium than a blog or a really quick post on Instagram or other content." What a gift to be able to look inside your heart. This book started at like 7 or 800 pages, by the way.

WILLIAMS:  I am sure.

DOYNE:  But then it became a challenge of not saying everything. Like what is this? And really culling it down, so I just felt really grateful to be able to use a different medium, to be able to go deeper, to be able to tell the story. And at the end of the day, I was like, "This is for my children." Who is this for? Who is the audience? It's for my children.

WILLIAMS:  Right.

DOYNE:  And handing that book to them, it was like all of the doubts and all of the insecurity and all of the -- it just went out the window. I was like, "Here, this is for you. If I'm not here tomorrow, this is what I want you to know about my journey and my love for you."

WILLIAMS:  Yes, the book is such a love letter, and it's such an intimate love letter, and you start the book with a letter to the reader, and then every chapter starts with a piece of a letter to a child, and there are then these bigger letters that sort of live through the book. And then you close with a letter to our children, right? To all of our children. What was the writing of those letters for you, and how have your children received those letters and received the book? What has that been like?

DOYNE:  So I used writing and journaling and letters as a tool for my own processing, remembering. Because you know, children are like all of a sudden they're a baby, and then they're walking, and then their teeth are loose. And then you wash their hair for the last time because they're showering on their own. And then you're dropping them off at college. And it's like I used letters as a way to freeze time and capture my love. And I ended up using love letters as a way to find myself back to my home after going through grief and loss, and remembering love and remembering a way back to my children and myself.

And so letters became a foundation and a structure in the narrative, and I just really believe in the power of writing letters and saying the truth that we have, because we don't know when our next moment is. Life is so precious.

WILLIAMS:  Life is so precious. It's so precious, and I think the whole book feels like a love letter, and then the center of the book, the heart of the book is love and loss and  grief, as you share your precious baby with us. And then you let us stand with you through absolute loss, and then stepping slowly into healing. It's hard to even ask a question about this, but what made you ready to share that now? "Ready" feels like the wrong word, too. What made you feel maybe called to share that now?

DOYNE:  Yes, I think I was really stuck in my own healing process and in my trauma and in the horror of what happened. I didn't want that to be my story. No one does. No mother wants to lose a child. No one wants tragedy. No one wants the worst thing in the world to happen, and yet it does.

And we have to navigate death and the impossible and broken hearts, and I felt like I couldn't heal. And not that I'll ever heal, but I was really stuck there in not being able to speak and not being able to -- I was so ashamed of what happened to him and to Ravi. And I just needed to do it for me and for my children and for my love. And again, about just being truthful. And then at the end of the day, I was just like, when we share our pain and our shame, maybe it helps someone else because we all have pain and shame, and we're all navigating death and loss, no matter what that looks like. Mine was really, really traumatic, but I wanted ultimately -- like my children will go through hard things. But I want them to know that there's still love, and there's still hope, and there's still joy, even when awful things happen that have no explanation. So that's why -- and Ravi's story obviously had to be in it.

WILLIAMS:  Of course.

DOYNE:  He was everything to us. He is everything.

WILLIAMS:  Yeah, the brightest, brightest, brightest light. I said it's intimate, but really we get to stand with you from the time you were 17, 18, and we get to see and grieve and build and learn with you. And the proximity you give us, to me felt like such a gift. And I wonder about you choosing to tell this story in first person and in present tense. Was that a given for you? Or did you sort of navigate that in different ways? Because you really -- like I feel you in every moment of the book. And then I actually had to listen to the audio book, too, and if anyone has read the book and hasn't heard the audio book, you should do both. So I guess, how did you come to present tense, first person? And then did you know you were going to read the book? 

DOYNE:  So it is a very visceral experience writing in the real present. And it was like I said. It's like going back and holding your hand. Luckily I had journals, and I had present writing to kind of get me through that, which -- everybody at the Blue School, write a journal. It's so powerful. It's such a powerful tool of expression and self and healing. But okay. When we were doing the audible, it was me sitting in a room with the producer through glass, and like a sound tech. And I didn't know I was going to have to read it.

WILLIAMS:  That wasn't the plan? 

DOYNE:  No, that wasn't the plan. I didn't know. It kind of popped up on me, and they were like, "Oh, we're going to make it an audible, too, and will you read it?" And I was like, "Of course. Sure." And then I thought about it. I was like, "Oh, I have to actually read it out loud" And it was so much to do. It was so hard. Because again, it takes you through this journey, and I am myself, reading as myself, having these real life experiences of pain and love and beauty and joy and whatever. It's like all of the things.

And at the end of each chapter, I would look through the glass at the producer. Her name was Brooklyn, and she'd be like teary-eyed and sobbing -- or laughing or whatever. And she would look at me and be like, "We just got married." It was totally -- "We had a baby!" So it was really fun. What got me through it was just looking at Brooklyn through the glass and being like, "I'm reading this to you, and you're the first person who has ever heard it, and it's in real life." But it was really hard to write it that way because I wanted to -- Now 35-year-old Maggie is woke. She like knows more.

WILLIAMS:  Right, or like judges. Yeah.

DOYNE:  But I couldn't be 35-year-old Maggie being like, "What are you doing? What are you thinking? Go home! Take a break. Step away. Get some sleep. Like don't go there." You know, you had to really be in the mindset of 18 and 19 and 20. And I think it's powerful because I want 19-year-olds to read it and see themselves. And it was a coming-of-age story. And one regret that I have is that the subtitle is A Mother's Journey. I think it should have been A Young Person's Journey, or A Young Woman's Journey or something.

[SIGHING] But I wanted to take the reader, I wanted to take my children along for the ride and be there, and be with me. And it was hard, because I wanted to be like, "No! Don't do it." Or, "Do you realize? Are you asking all the right questions right now?"

WILLIAMS:  I have a question about the mother part that you just named. I'm wondering about what it was like for you to choose motherhood as such a young woman. And it feels like throughout the book you question all these other roles, right? Like womanhood, even, or like what it is to be a girlfriend, what it is to be a daughter, what it is to be a student. All of these other things feel like you're navigating them, grappling with them, arguing with them. And then motherhood somehow doesn't, actually. It doesn't feel like you're questioning motherhood. And you're a mother to so many. When did you know that? And what has it been to step into motherhood again and again? You have a new baby -- even right now. And your oldest children are --

DOYNE:  In college.

WILLIAMS:  In college.

DOYNE:  In jobs. I know. 

WILLIAMS:  So yeah. What was it to choose motherhood at such a young age, and then to sort of re-choose motherhood?

DOYNE:  Oh, motherhood definitely chose me. It was something that happened. It wasn't something I set out to do. It's a different journey for everyone. For me, it was something that -- it just fell in – I obviously didn't set out to be like, "And I'm going to be a mother." People have that misconception about the story from afar, that they're like, "Yeah, and then she just went out to save and help children." And that's not what happened. And another reason why I wanted to tell that story from that lens, Chapter 6, "Kites in the Sky" is all about becoming a mother in a different way. And there are so many different ways to mother biologically and non-biologically. There are so many ways to woman. There are so many ways to be in relationship with a child as a mentor, a teacher, a parent. And it was all of these things, right? Like parenting. But for me, motherhood has been again, one of the most powerful learning -- You learn about yourself in ways. It's such a teacher, right? And it was something that came to me very naturally, and it was something that I loved. It's like the identity that I wear with most pride, and the thing that makes me feel most alive and makes me love and understand our humanity in a different way.

So for me, it was really important to talk about that. And I love being a mom. Obviously I love it, because I have 58 now. And I've chosen biological motherhood, too, and it's all a gift. And it's all very humbling.

WILLIAMS:  Parenting is so humbling. Yeah. And I'm wondering how -- this might be a quirky question. So much of parenting or mothering for you was as you were building community and building partnerships and co-parenting with people you were working with, right? The aunties and the -- And as a part of your work. You have a husband who you also parent with now. How has your work shaped how you think about parenting with a partner?

DOYNE:  Yes, so for me it was always about the communal -- it takes a village. And when I thought about what a child needs to thrive and grow in community, it's lots of adults. It's aunties. I mean, "auntie" is a biological term for a relative, but in Nepali culture, it's also all of your big sisters -- the community, right? The collective auntie as a culture.  A child needs mentors and people to look up to and parental figures and teachers. Teachers are parents in a way. We take the term more figuratively, I guess. And so it was always about, and still for me is about creating a village and a team, and surrounding my children and our children, our collective human family with people.

I think we need to change a lot of the terminology on what it means to be family, and what it means to live in commune and in togetherness and ours. These are our children. We need to look at us, ourselves as a collective, and I can't always be the perfect mother to my child in the way that they need to be parented at a certain moment. And that's when the community stepped in, or Tope, or Kusum, or Bauju, or Daju. Kids themselves are their own unit of big sisters and little brothers. So it was about creating -- Kopila is just this place of joy and laughter and music. And kind of creating the environment with which a family can flourish and be together. So that meant changing the narrative around orphanages and the darkness. We wanted dancing and music and kites and warm dahl and rice and nature and play. And that what the overlap is between our two organizations and our two communities, because I think Blue and all that you stand for is right there with that, too. It's like, no -- this is about creating a collective of a community, and it doesn't need to look the way that traditionally we look at it. 

North American parenting is so much harder and so much more individualized and so much more isolated, and becoming a parent in Nepal was really helpful because Nepal has that whole communal village really figured out. There's a lot more reliance on community and neighbors and the collective.

WILLIAMS:  You talk about sort of being 18 and starting to ask these big questions. And I think you said that you feel like you lost time, that you could have even started this work earlier. And I'm thinking about our students, or our children, my child, and wondering what, as parents or as educators we can do to engage our children in this sort of work of the world?

DOYNE:  I think getting quieter. It sounds so cliché, but just how do we teach being present, being in the moment? There's so much noise that it's easy to forget every single day, like what are we here for? How do we find our truest and highest way to serve ourselves and love ourselves and each other? How do we stay anchored in love? How do we lead with love? How do we find kindness to ourselves and to others and to each other? 

So just really staying anchored to the ground and like catching ourselves in those moments of the noise, right? And as educators and parents and just people trying to figure this planet out right now. We're in such a time, right, of just taking a deep breath and knowing when to just sit with quiet and come back to center. And mindfulness, which you talk about all the time in your community. Yeah, remembering that we're in this together and that we rely on each other. And gosh, just every day not getting caught up in all of the things there are to get caught up in.

WILLIAMS:  Yeah, but I think it's a hard time. I think, like you said, there is so much noise. There's so much. Like there's just so much that your words about slowing down, or really like being able to listen to yourself when things around you are quieter -- those feel like really important tools right now. And in a way, it feels like we've been quiet, right? The past few years, there's a lot coming at us, and we've also been more still, I think. A lot of us, and my communities in New York have felt a little more still, and I wonder if we can use that as a way to understand.

DOYNE:  Yes, I often struggle with when is it time to be quiet and sit back and be the monk on the mountain, and when does that intersect with activism and needing to shake things up and be the activist and be the change-maker and be the generator and the fuel. And often that's a really tricky balance of like, when do you sit back and say, "No, this is quiet." And when do you step in to change and really shake things up. And I think that is when the listening and paying attention and being present. Because I think when you're in a place of presence and gratitude, I think gratitude is also a really powerful force, then you can give, right?

When you're quiet, then you can give. Then you can have those moments of activism, and you can discern when you need to step in and change something, or when it's your moment to be a teacher, or when it's your moment to be an activist, or when it's your moment to create change. It's easier to discern things when you're coming from a place of gratitude, quiet, reflection, open-heartedness, mindfulness.

So I think it's about getting us back to that state, so then we know when it is time to step up. And, "Okay, now I need to be an activator." And "Now I need community." And "Now I need to be a change-maker." And, "Oh, wait, now it's time for quiet. I'm a listener now. I'm a part of something, a collaborator." There are all these different parts.

WILLIAMS:  Right. Yeah, it's so valuable. I have one last question for you. So much it feels like your love, your work, your purpose feel all so tied together, and I wonder if you could talk about where you find yourself now? 

DOYNE:  So I have two biological children, one a baby Everest, who I just gave birth to. 

WILLIAMS:  He's so beautiful.

DOYNE:  And the book launched just last week, the week before. So we're having like a book moment. I think using the book as a tool to just inspire others and help people navigate these questions. We move back to Nepal in June. Ruby starts pre-kindergarten at the Kopila Valley school.

WILLIAMS:  That's so amazing.

DOYNE:  I'm in a place of parenting young adults, and the relationship changes, right? We're in the relationship of being a parent, and we have 166 kids in college, so a huge point of transition. And also one of my dreams, and kind of a role that I want to step into is being a teacher and a mentor to other people who want to do this work. And being able to open-source our curriculum, our programs, how to do this work ethically, conscientiously, in partnership with community. And so I'm really excited for that.

And also we still have children coming our way every single day. The struggle is still there. The change that we need to bring about in this world. I mean, I want to see a world in my lifetime where every child is safe and educated and loved, and that their most basic human needs and rights are met. I believe we can live in a world where children have food to eat, and we can keep them warm and nurtured, and that every child can have access to education and learning and a safe environment and a family -- whatever that looks like. So I'm going to be working for that for all of the rest of my days on Earth. And I hope that when I'm old and grey, we can say that we got there, and that we've evolved through this period of time where we're just not doing our children right. We're just not doing right by our children. It's like I want to be a part of that puzzle. 

And there are many of us who want that, yourselves included are on that journey. And it's just fun to join hands and try to figure this out together. So I just want to be a part of that and be a teacher in that space and work alongside all of you, who are also trying to do this, in your corner and place. And enough of us doing the right things and leading with heart and trying to make the world better for children, I think will make the world better for children.

WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Maggie. This has been an amazing, amazing hour. I'm really grateful.

DOYNE:  So much fun.

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